Floating the Flop Check-Raise

13 thoughts on “Floating the Flop Check-Raise”

1. I think the lesson here is to tell a consistent story if you’re bluffing. Overpairs don’t check this flop as the raiser. And, even if he knew you to be aggressive, and knew that you’d bet, they check raise much bigger.

2. I’ve never figured these min-c/r’s out either. I suppose it’s possible the mouse slipped and he hit raise when he meant to call – I’ve certainly done that. But I think I see them too often for that.

   Generally speaking, the lower the stakes, the more you see min-bets and -raises that make no sense at all. I was playing in a .25/.50 PLO game last night where SB opened with a limp and I raised to $1.50 and he called. I flopped top set with a non-nut flush draw (something like QJJ9 on a Q75 board). He bet .50, I raised the pot, he called. The turn paired the board. He bet .50 again, I raised the pot, he called. The river was an off-suit ace. He bet .50 again, I raised about half the pot, he folded.

   I truly have no clue what he could possibly have had or what he though betting .50 would do other than make it possible for me to charge him an extra buck for the next card.

   When you figure this stuff out, please post about it. 🙂

   • Correction QQJ9.

   • Ed Miller calls the betting 1BB thing “checking with a chip”. In the cases I’ve seen, I think it’s trying to be a blocking bet with a draw.

     I can’t say I’ve ever seen someone min-bet the flop or turn, and been dissuaded from doing whatever I was going to do before they made that silly play.

     • Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember reading that in one of Miller’s books. What I don’t remember was whether he thought it was a good play.

       I personally would never min-bet in either NLH or PLO unless the pot is very small and a min bet is the right size. If you ever see me bet less than 1/4 of the pot, it’s because I fumbled the betting slider.

       • He basically said to treat it like a check. Whether it’s a good play or not depends on how your opponent reacts.

         For example, if you did it on the flop and turn, and got raised both times, don’t do it on the river, unless you want your opponent to raise again. 🙂

         • My experience with min bets, especially if it’s a guy leading into the raise, is that they usually represent a weakish hand, but most people usually get pretty stubborn once they take this line, so I usually only raise if I have a decent made hand or a decent draw. In my experience you need to fire at least two bullets if you want them to fold their marginal hand. And some times they just got stubborn and call you down anyway. So I treat those minbets as weak but don’t bluff unless I have a decent made hand or draw.

           The min check-raise is quite different and it’s usually either something really strong or a cheap bluff. For example I’ve seen guys bluff min check-raising a cbet on super dry boards, especially paired ones.

           • Well said. I am willing to call the min-bets really light, because not only am I getting huge odds no matter how weak my hand is, but I can also usually figure out when a legitimate scare card is likely to get Villain to fold to a big raise.

         • I think I agree with Christoph about min-bets (as opposed to the min-c/r) and the mentality of many people who do this. I think they’re hoping to see the next card cheap but are at heart chasers who can’t bear to lay down a hand. That’s why they min-bet. This might not make sense to us but it makes perfect sense to them.

           As for min c/r, the players I see doing it are usually clueless, and their reasons for doing it opaque, at least to me. But then, I play a lot more PLO and PLO8 than NLH these days, and PLO(8) players in the lower stakes don’t c/r much to begin with, and when they do they almost invariably pot it. So my personal sample size with people min-c/r-ing is pretty small.

           • “I think they’re hoping to see the next card cheap but are at heart chasers who can’t bear to lay down a hand. ”

             I like this line a lot.

3. With his flop min-check-raise or with his standard check-raise Andrew line will be very credible and powerful line.-Maybe even more powerful line with his standard check-raise.

4. So, maybe I can give some insight as an idiot :). I tried doing flop min-check-raises in plo10 for a bit. My idea at the time was that I could do that more often than bigger check raises, and it would counter people c-betting me all the time with nothing. This was as I moved to FTP from much more passive games, where I had no idea how to deal with the aggressiveness. I was trying to do it with strong and weak hands, but I stopped after a while (probably as I got better 🙂 as it seemed to just ended up folding out the weakest hands and the strongest just potted it back, and I had no idea where I was on the turn if they just called … I probably also wasn’t following up with 1/2 to 3/4 pot bets on the turn with my weak hands, which _might_ make it a better play.

   I also intentionally did the insta. min-raise river scare cards a bit (but much less), which worked much better than the min-raise flop (maybe even +EV) … although I’ve tried to stop doing that too (mainly because I was only ever doing it as an accident for value — although I occasionally spaz out and still do it then :o).

   Betting 1BB into a 10BB+ pot though I’ve never understood, but given that I’ve folded to them when I had absolutely nothing (esp. in later relative position in a 3+ way pot) I _guess_ people have decided it’s better than a check. But that doesn’t explain lines like check calling 2/3 pot on flop, and then betting 1BB into 15BB on the turn (maybe it’s for shear wtf value, esp. for anyone not paying enough attention :).

5. Also, there’s this: http://www.highstakesdb.com/view-hand-history.aspx?GameID=585128

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