Episode 118: Shaniac

23 thoughts on “Episode 118: Shaniac”

1. The it will get better thing isn’t really something you can impart on people who are suffering, esp 23 year old people imo — it is a bit cross-purposed maybe, though I am struggling for the word.

   Some portion of people who commit don’t commit out of what I would consider choice. They have choice, they make choices, but when the act happens they are in a state of not making choices, their choice centre is compromised, as it becomes when you are otherwise compromised. So my higher level awareness is compromised when I am first waking up, or drunk, or what have you.

   Basically, from my experience as a 23 year old on the brink, I became aware from observing myself that there might, or eventually would, be circumstances to conspire where I would make a choice I would otherwise not make had those circumstances not conspired, or inspired, some tipping point in my brain chemistry. Opportunity within the nadir will result in attempt with some probability, basically, and the deeper one dwells in that nadir the probability rises and the longer one dwells the number of trials where you roll for p increases. Of course what became concerning was how that became like a background to my day to day compared to a frightening awareness of my own lack of control.

   So I think the analogy of holding onto the ledge of a burning building and letting go (a DFW analogy), as people do, is apt for some set of suicides, I think drowning in a flood where you make some navigational choices which may or may not affect the ultimate outcome (ie you could be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic but not know it), is also an apt analogy for some set of suicides, particularly under 25 year old suicides. The fact is, insofar as we have free will, we indisputably do not always retain control, or the same degree of that control.

   One other common misconception surrounding that level of depression, I find, is the notion that the people aren’t holding onto the ledge for dear life, or that they just slid down the pit with their arms up like it was a fun rollercoaster — actually a lot of people who eventually lose the fight, and those who recover too, fought every day, at every stage, all the way down. They scrambled all they could, they dug their nails into the slippery slope, and gravity won.

   • Useful stuff. Thanks for sharing it. It would be really great if the varieties of depression, and the differences between them, were generally understood.

     • Only got through about 65% of the interview last night, so looking forward to finishing it today.

       It is so tough to even properly diagnose people, thus I feel (and could be wrong) that we are so far away from being able to understand the varieties of depression. For example Shane mentioned mania, so I assume he means he is manic depressive, or has those tendencies. On the other hand I am severe depressive — I honestly don’t think I can fully empathise with manics or mania, I just have very little reference point internally. So even though I would love to be able to empathise with it, I think I would be fooling myself to claim that I could. My grandfather had mania as well though, so maybe I just have to wait until a later phase of life.

       • Hey, just let me say again that I’m very grateful you’re willing to write about this stuff.

         I agree we’re probably far away from a full understanding of depression, and that at least most of us (certainly myself among them) can’t come close to really getting what most of them are like. That said, a basic awareness that there *are* varieties, that they’re not just intense versions of whatever sadness one might have recently felt, and so on would be, I think, valuable.

   • I will be careful with your usage of awareness,misconception and DFW context.

     When you read DFW writings you find quiet a lot explicit and implicit instructions used in meditative practice.

     Wallace awareness is “unimaginably difficult” state to accomplish.
     It is true that awareness is about attention.
     If you practice meditation you will realize two modes of attention.
     One is narrative and another experiential.
     Narrative is story about experience.
     Wallace encourage neurosurgery on your mind shifting to experience rather than default narrative.

     “It is about simple awareness — awareness of what is so real and
     essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, that we have to keep
     reminding ourselves, over and over: “This is water, this is water.”

     What you describe and practice is narrative attention which leads to spiritual materialism- maintain an ideal emotional state of mind as a refuge from suffering.

2. For the record, Im that guy from New Jersey lol

   • Just your average joe schmoe.

3. This episode and this guy evoke a fairly strong reaction in me, because while I’m utterly sympathetic to the struggle he describes, part of me has feels an equally strong obligation to police this kind of discourse for genuineness. There’s a prohibition read at the start of most AA meetings asking people who are drunk not to share because “we want to hear from you, not the disease,” and while I recognize that in the context of someone suffering from depression what I’m saying could be perceived as the worst kind of intolerance, potentially fatal, I’m not sure what I’m hearing when I hear this guy speak. I come from a place of experience on this matter: depression is the utterly predictable outcome of a decision to use drugs, and couching that outcome in terms that elevate it to a plane of spiritualism is not, to me, I’m sorry, helpful.

   • I find the equivocation with exercising and other non-deleterious activities perhaps the most, I don’t know, dishonest analysis. Sure, we’re all searching for the high and fulfillment these bring. Some practices don’t have horrible consequences.

     I think it is a bit of an American centric parochialism that Americans tend to view morality through the lens of their legal system and then some Americans elevate above that and want to tell everyone about their miraculous elevation. Actually no one else in the world views morality with reference to the American legal system, it is too juvenile a thought to even entertain. It is just a lot healthier to not be saddled by that and really it is not an accomplishment or point of open mindedness to be thinking otherwise. Good thing Shane seems incredibly open minded about a great many other things. But I guess of course if you are using and that usage is legally prohibited and that prohibition is enforced by a particularly violent and incompetent state, one can see how said saddling could come to be.

4. I had only ever heard “arrive on *planes* and leave on buses,” which (I think) is both more to the point and probably more historically accurate, because who the heck ever took a train to Vegas.

   The rack attack should stop beating around the bush and just be played Stud H/L, Declare, no qualifier. Also, instead of being a fixed rack of reds, the rack should be full of an unknown color, not revealed until after showdown. How *would* you play if the rack was white, red, or green, on a weighted probability of, say, 50/40/10?

   m

   • That’s a great idea.

   • Hm, that makes a lot more sense. It’s probably telling that when I heard this at Foxwoods I substituted “trains,” given that in a lot of cases around here, trains are really the rich person’s way to travel…

     I’d probably be happy to treat the 50/40/10 mix as a rack of red (which has the same EV as it does). I would *certainly* be happy to play rack attack hands as “any-any” stud with a declare.

     • Yeah, the EV of the unknown rack is similar/identical. But it seems to me there would be non-trivial behavioral implications of the variance increase, offering some opportunities to knock-out risk-averse players or gain extra value from those suffering from risk-love. Assuming you had the reads. A small effect, but probably a noticeable one.

       Also, there’s a March Madness ad right now on the CBS affiliates that prominently features the phrases “RACK ATTACK.” That made me laugh last night.

5. Dear Nate and Andrew,
   Thank you for being the only place I can consume Poker and Comments like this side by side.

   “I think it is a bit of an American centric parochialism that Americans tend to view morality through the lens of their legal system and then some Americans elevate above that and want to tell everyone about their miraculous elevation.”

6. I disagree with Shane’s statement that mindfulness is meant to mimic drug use. We meditate to embrace the present, not to disassociate from it. While is it true that socio-political movements like “tune in, turn on and drop out” share some of the transcendent goals of the ritualistic peyote or mescaline ceremonies popularized by native American culture (and certain gonzo journalists), I would submit that the vast majority of drug users seek escape, not enlightenment.

7. I like these conversations with Shane. I’m glad I don’t share the struggles he and Gareth and others bear. I’m a fairly happy person and these things are foreign to me.

   In the 1980s, the Soviets, and probably the Americans, would drop suspects into sensory deprivation tanks to torture them. Today, mindfullness advocates spend thousands of dollars to undergo the same treatment in order to expand their consciousness. I don’t pretend to understand any of it.
   I’m confident enough in humanity to think we should allow capable, consenting adults to both experiment with drugs and end their life if they choose. I’m honest enough to realize this will create lots of problems.
   I don’t know if the two things, drugs and suicide are linked. There’s lots of correlations in the world that don’t rise to the level of causation.
   I think suicide is grossly misunderstood, broadly and by me. It has to be valuable to hear the perspective of those in pain, who are contemplating the end. It also has to be valuable to hear from trained professionals who soberly approach the subject.

8. This episode was poker’s Spinal Tap! 5 bucks says the reason that the other episode was lost was because it was Shaniac’s job to hit the record button.

   Only the least-charitable would not wish Shaniac a bit of luck, but he would probably be wise to avoid quoting George Clinton in the unlikely event of him making it to the interview with a start-up company on time.

   An interview with his wife would probably be a great-deal more revealing, or his mum. Anyway, I genuinely hope that he can turn things around and find a happy place.

   • Thanks for the feedback. I know you meant that second line as a joke, but I think it’s really unfair to Shane. I can understand disagreeing with him or wondering whether he is deluding himself, but to accuse him of trying to hide something is pretty ridiculous. We all have our vices, and even though Shane’s are pretty high on the list of things that even very liberal/tolerant people will be judgmental about, he’s quite forthcoming about them. I don’t know him well, but the sense I get is that he’s trying to find work that will enable him to be himself rather than force him to pretend to be someone he isn’t, and I think that’s respectable, though it’s certainly not the easiest path to walk.

     • All respect to Shaniac.
       I know a more that few ex-poker players who are in worse mental shape than Shaniac.
       They could be great individuals for poker podcast.The problem is they do not have a courage to do what Shaniac did.
       Regarding Shaniac profession change and job search.I am not sure he understand his own motivation.

       I quit my job as software engineer two years ago.
       I did it because it costed me something like 12 hours a day.
       I did it because I realize that owning your time it is very valuable possession you can ever have.
       You can spend your time making money.But you can’t spend your money making time.
       Being “part-time” online poker pro is awesome job as long as you have autonomy of location and an autonomy of owning your time.

     • Andrew, I don’t think he is trying to hide anything but I think a lot of people can lack objectivity when discussing their own shortcomings (guilty!). Shaniac just sounds like he is stuck in the kind of over-ripened adolescence that is often accompanied by the smell of exotic herbs.

       There is nothing really wrong with that, so long as it makes the person happy. That would not seem to be the case with Shaniac and a trial-separation from his friendly neighborhood dealer might not be the worst move for him if he really wants to turn his life around.

       As far as 9-5 jobs are concerned, I have always felt that they are noble occupations for others to take up on my behalf. I’m sure that, with a clear head and a renewed perspective, Shaniac is perfectly capable of making a very good living from poker.

       Bosses tend to be more brutal than any river card.

9. I have a lot I could say on the topics discussed in this episode, but I’ll just say that I appreciated Shane’s openness and – as someone who’s had similar struggles – I feel for him.

10. Just a quick note to say it was an honour to have my hand featured.

    It was actually from a 45 man SNG rather than a single table tournament. There were 21 or 22 people left and those tournaments pay 7, so ICM wasn’t really a factor as was assumed in the analysis.

    Results 1: Villain has As 9c – which like Andrew I would expect him to check behind on the river. I didn’t expect him to have many aces in his range though as there is only the As unaccounted for and I would probably hear from AK pre or AQ on the turn and the others shouldn’t call a 3-bet though they often do.

    (And tsk tsk Andrew, in my wall of text I did include a link to a twoplustwo thread about it and say that was the place to go to find Villain’s hand).

    Results 2: Hero goes on to win the tournament and move up to play in the rarefied atmosphere of $3.50 MTTSNGs.

    I haven’t listened to the rest of the episode. I am still on episode 62 – I just looked ahead to see if the hand had been featured.

    • Thanks, Richard. Interesting result, sorry I missed that. Hope you found it helpful, though, and are enjoying your journey through the archives! Feel free to send another hand sometime.

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