I thought about posting this one as a “What’s Your Play?”, but I think it’s too weird and the flop check would be too much of a distraction from the turn decision, so I’m just going to post it and write about it like I don’t do often enough anymore. It’s from a small, mostly locals $500 tournament with a good structure and an extremely soft field, which makes me put a serious premium on survival.
Button is one of the better players at the table, which isn’t saying much. UTG and UTG+1 are very typical loose-passive casual players for whom this monthly tournament is a pretty big deal.
Full Tilt Poker $250/$500/$50 No Limit Hold’em – 10 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
SB: $20000.00
BB: $20000.00
UTG: $30000.00
UTG+1: $50000.00
Hero (UTG+2): $25000.00
MP1: $20000.00
MP2: $20000.00
MP3: $20000.00
CO: $20000.00
BTN: $50000.00
Pre Flop: ($1250.00) Hero is UTG+2 with A
Q
UTG calls $500, UTG+1 calls $500, Hero raises to $3000, 4 folds, BTN calls $3000, 2 folds, UTG calls $2500, UTG+1 calls $2500
Flop: ($13250.00) Q
7 4 (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, BTN checks
Turn: ($13250.00) J
(4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $6000, BTN calls $6000, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $47000, Hero folds, BTN folds
Final Pot: $31250.00
Flop is obviously unconventional. The thing is that I have an SPR (stack-to-pot ratio) of 2 and these guys are very much playing fit-or-fold. I think that if they “fit”, meaning a Q or a flush draw, I’m going to get a big pot regardless. If they missed, I’d rather show some weakness on the flop and let them turn a pair. There are only 3 truly bad turn cards for me, the non-spade Kings. The other 3 Aces may be action killers, but they could also make someone a pair. If it weren’t for the As in my hand, I’d bet the flop since spades would also be bad cards for me. I don’t think it’s a mistake, but I definitely don’t consider a mandatory check, either.
The turn is where it really gets interesting. When I bet, both Button’s call and UTG’s fold came without hesitation. UTG+1 moved in very quickly and confidently. As much as I had no intention of folding AQ after seeing this flop, there was just no way this made sense for anything less than two-pair and probably a set. He really wasn’t the sort to go with a draw, and particularly not to take a line like this if he was going to, not to mention that I have the most likely draws blocked. I wouldn’t have been at all surprised to see him bet-call off with KQ or AJ following my flop check – in fact that was the reason I checked – but I think he’d be more concerned about protecting a one-pair hand.
Button folded as well, so I didn’t get to see UTG+1’s hand, but this fold still looks right to me. The only way I could see the fold being wrong is if UTG+1 decided I had nothing based on the flop check and was going to “trap” me for a bet before shoving with whatever. I wouldn’t have folded to him in a heads up pot, but I think Button’s call would have deterred that plan.
I fold that all day on the turn without even blinking against the players described (not saying your behind every time though). I would definitely puke.
1. for the tournament you described, 6bb raise seems slightly too large. limpers in EP are often limping to call (moreso if another LP villain cold calls which they rationalize as giving them “pot odds to call”). generally, such limpers are indifferent to a preflop bet size difference of 2bb. in these spots, the rationale for raising is less for isolation, and more to build a pot in late position against weak tight players.
2. flop check is unorthodox, but defensible, especially if button is the sort who will bet any piece of the flop– in which case, you have the advantage of relative position before acting. nonetheless, i prefer a small c-bet of t3600 (~1/4th psb). in a multiway pot, most beginners have no choice but to play straight-forwardly. 1/4th is enough to fold out all air while also being very difficult to interpret for any villains with mid-pps or any piece of that flop. 1/4th psb cbet widens their calling range, the majority of which is behind TPTK+BDFD. if raised, it is a trivial fold.
3. however, as played, turn bet seems too large. it is a great size, if you are aiming squarely (and only) at value extraction from Jx, but based on similar logic of above, i’d lean toward a smaller bet-size (but closer to 1/3rd psb) which also gives more room to call a raise while allowing some rope for Jx to overplay their hand. it also leaves enough behind for you to c/f river.
4. sad, but good, fold. does UTG ever have KsJx in this spot with that line? doubtful.
I’d fold here too, but here’s the counterargument:
UTG+1’s play is pretty consistent with the way a loose-passive player would play a spade draw, no? Four-way action, he gets to “see a free card” by checking his draw.
Then, on the turn, button hits a jack — possibly even AJ — and calls your bet (thinking it’s a bluff, obviously).
UTG+1 is now looking at a relatively tasty pot with his draw and shoves.
Obviously, his line is also consistent with loose-passive play of trips both in terms of the flop check and also playing scared of the flush and straight draws by overbetting — and that’s also consistent with his pre-flop call.
Did you consider check/jamming the flop if someone led after you? And yea, the fold on the turn is correct at least 95% of the time vs this villain. He definitely isn’t giving 2nd best hands a chance to keep donating to the pot. What would you have done if he raised a normal amount or even min-raised?
This isn’t as much of a weird line as you may think, nor is it such a “big” fold.
These local tournament players have one thing in common…they all are afraid of getting sucked out on. As a result, they shove with very strong hands to “take the pot down now” rather than squeeze out more value from second best hands. Two to a straight and two to a flush on board puts them in panic mode, so they try to shut out the draws right there.
His limp call is almost always a pair in set mine mode. He is going to show you JJ, 77 or 44 most of the time, with the occasional QJs (in which case it would have to be QsJs and he flopped a monster). Easy fold.
I like the check for pot control on the flop (even multi way). They are playing fit or fold poker, so you can feel much better about your hand on the flop when the draws missed (at least until he check shoved). You lost the minimum.