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Listener (and host) favorite Tommy Angelo returns to the podcast to discuss Elements of Poker. If you enjoy this one, be sure to check out his previous appearance as well. And if you like the mailbag segment, there’s more discussion about opening (or not) from the small blind on Episode 13.
Timestamps
0:30 Hello and Welcome
1:50 Strategy
25:03 Mailbag
41:00 Book Club: Elements of Poker with Tommy Angelo
Blinds 300/600/75.
Hero is in the BB with a stack of 27,000, and the chip leader is in the SB. It’s folded around to the button (whose stack is about twice that of Hero) who raises to 1500. The SB (the chip leader whose stack is about 4 times that of Hero) 3-bets to 4000. Hero has AhAc, and after considerable thought (a player not in the hand called the clock on Hero), Hero 4-bets to 8000. The button folds, and the SB (the chip leader) calls.
Hero has 19,000 left, and the pot contains 18,175. The flop: Ad 2h 3d. Hero goes all-in for 19,000, and the SB folds.
My take on the question of what to do when it’s folded to you with Kx in the SB against a total unknown is that it’s essentially going to be impossible to come up with any remote idea what the ideal play looks like, so it doesn’t really matter whether you limp or minraise or open larger, provided you had a plan for what you’re doing, why, and how to proceed. There are plenty of +EV lines to take, and +EV may not be as good as MaxEV, but it’s definitely better than 0EV. Perhaps this is what Nate meant by reverting to general poker principles – I think maybe you touched on something similar when talking to Tommy.
Once again Tommy is the “Nuts”
As for stop thinking…honestly the whole idea tilted me for a while…you can’t really stop your brain. Or stop thinking. There is always some level of brain activity…
I started to think of it as this…
move from external to Internal thoughts.
move from analytically thinking to awareness.
move from fast to slow thinking.
move from ego /self conscious to ego less/less self conscious.
move from thinking to feeling.
more from evaluating to acceptance.
Obviously your hippocampus is going to continue hippo camping and so on, but it’s more about your conscious mind, and it’s not not thinking, as i understand it, it’s locating the focus of your conscious mind in the present, rather than the future or the past or other abstract sidelines – typically focusing on something like your breathing to bring yourself into simple awareness of what is happening now.
I’m very much a beginner, but I do find it rewarding. The Economist ran an article a few weeks back about scientific studies looking at the potential benefits that even small levels of meditation can have. But it’s amazing how wandering the mind is – as Tommy said it’s less about a state of focus than it is a constant process of loss of focus and refocus. (Echoing Andrew’s story about looking left) one of the methods I’ve seen recommends counting each in/out cycle of breath, resetting to 0 every time your mind ceases to concentrate on your breathing. When I’ve tried that I think the highest I’ve got is 5. And the thinking about thinking is so true – I’m forever realising that i’m thinking about how good my concentration is going and maybe I should write a blog about it, rather than actually, you know, concentrating.
Just to be clear my point wasn’t at all not to follow Tommy’s advice.
My point was that I didn’t like the term “Not thinking”.
For me anyways it lead to frustration because I knew it was impossible.
I am all for Meditation/ Mindful thinking in general.
Hi Eric,
“My point was that I didn’t like the term ‘Not thinking’.
Me either. That phrase, and also “stopping the thinking,” are inaccurate. What you can do by intentionally moving your attention to your breathing or posture or sounds is to stop the thoughts that were going on right before you shifted your attention. Focusing does not cause thinking to stop. But it does change its course. And then, when your mind races back to the same thoughts you were trying to get away from, there is a chance that this time you’ll be able observe them, and label them as “Oh, those are just my thoughts spattering around again.”
And at that moment, even if it only lasts one second, you really have done something remarkable, by having the pain-causing thoughts, but without the pain.
I found Tommy’s outlook on life and poker very interesting. It was something I never gave much thought to until a couple of years ago. I am a recreational player and just play for fun but I play seriously and try to make enough playing cash games to pay for Vegas trips.
So I wanted to share this experience that I could not compartmentalize and basically caused me to quit poker, I had no intentions of playing again, then after a year I guess I got over it and started again but look at things differently now.
I was at the Rio for a WSOP 1500 nlhe event it was near the end of the trip I just cashed for about 8000$ just after midnight on day 2, I had no expectations of cashing at all, so I was feeling good about it and went to play a cash game. This normally how I make money I just play one tournament a year for fun or something different.
I was up like 6 buy-ins at a ridiculous table doing very well with really good looking girl to my right staked by her boyfriend on her 4th buy in since I got there. Then an old Italian guy who spoke no english sat to her right he smelled bad, minimum buy in really playing no hands getting frustrated he could not limp and see a flop. He was obviously offensive to everyone near him people around were visibly uncomfortable with the smell and complaining. It looked like the girl and the guy to his right were going to leave which I really didn’t want to happen.
So I made a conscious decision to get him to leave (stack him, double him up whatever it took). So he finally calls a raise and donks, I instantly put him all in. He grabs his stack bangs the table and left abruptly. The dealer raked in his cards and I got a round of thank you’s and maybe even applause as he left I showed some thing like 82o that really got everyone laughing.
Like 60 seconds later there was a big commotion on the main isle half way across the room. One guy got up ( to check it out but I didn’t know where he was going at the time).
30 minutes later he comes back looks at me and says “It was that Italian guy you ran off, he died over there, I guess you killed him”
I have never felt so low in my life I couldn’t even say anything. I folded for an orbit or two looking around the room thinking what the hell am I doing here with these degenerates (me apparently included) in the middle of the night taking advantage of people who can’t play as well ( drunk, stupid, tilting, self destructive, fish) whatever the reason.
I have even been ashamed to tell this story because I felt disgusted about it and to be a part of a game / culture where this can happen or be acceptable? and only ever told one person. I was thinking that telling it here might help me get over it.
Don’t feel like you have to post this if you think it is too much of a downer.
Wow, that’s a hell of a story. I’m sure I have no idea how I would actually feel if I were in your shoes. As an outside observer, though, I really don’t see where you did anything wrong. I don’t mean that in a “any poker player would do the same, gotta look out for your bottom line” sort of way, I mean like in terms of how one human being treats another, I don’t see where you were out line. You both sat down to play a game, you both paid your take, and you’re both entitled to play your cards however you want. If you’d needled him or said “GTFO you fat smelly loser” after he folded, it would be a different story. But if he quit because he didn’t like the way you played, that’s on him. Likewise if he got that worked up over a game. You respected his time and his money, so you passed the Tommy Angelo test 🙂
A horrible outcome – but you shouldn’t feel responsible or in any way to blame.
As for the wider question of the ethics of trying to make money from people who may have various problems or disadvantages (gambling addiction, drunkenness &c.), I think all you can do is make sure that you’ve asked yourself the question and tried to answer it honestly – i.e. where do you draw the line in terms of who you’re prepared to “exploit” at the poker table. The argument that your opponents should be responsible for their own decisions has a lot of merit – but if you find yourself feeling uncomfortable trying to win money from players in a particular game, well, I guess that’s a good time to practise your quitting decisions.
And thanks for sharing this; I hope it helps.
I wanted to write something thoughtful. I can’t do better than Andrew did. From the outside it is easy to say that you didn’t do anything wrong and that you shouldn’t feel bad. I’m sure it looks different from your point of view.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a guy not to be at your table any more. I haven’t done the arithmetic, but probably a lot / all of us have thought something negative about someone who died soon thereafter. It’s a shame it happened so vividly in this spot, but it looks like you didn’t do anything really cruel.
Hey, I was excited to hear my question about SB play in the Mail Bag section. I got mentioned in the TPE podcast and the TP podcast in the same week. Huge fan of both. Thanks guys.
I summed up your discussion on it to this…treat it like a heads up match. That makes it clear that you cant fold as much as I have been doing.
I guess you should observe the opponent and see how he reacts to things and just exploit him from there. Each one of the general (but conflicting) poker principles I listed in my email has a counter argument depending on how the opponent in question plays.
I guess the SB question has the same answer as the question of how can online poker players sit in front of a computer with no break to pee for hours on end…Depends.