I haven’t played poker since the end of the SCOOP. This morning I had a little time and played about an hour of Rush. The hotel internet left something to be desired, so I just played two tables. The combination of not having played in a while and having no more than two tables going at any time meant that I was really keyed in and focused, and I noticed a lot of little things that I probably don’t do when I’m not paying as much attention. Even though it didn’t turn into a big pot, this hand is a good example of the sort of thing that can actually save you a lot of money when you do it consistently and correctly:
PokerStars – $2 NL (6 max) ZOOM – Holdem – 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: $130.84
SB: $77.00
BB: $113.56
UTG: $192.00
MP: $113.10
Hero (CO): $200.00
SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00
Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has Kc Ah
UTG raises to $4.00, fold, Hero raises to $12.00, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $8.00
Flop: ($27.00, 2 players) 2s 2d Ad
UTG checks, Hero bets $18.00, UTG calls $18.00
Turn: ($63.00, 2 players) Qh
UTG bets $30.00, fold
UTG wins $60.20
A Q is surely one of the worst cards in the deck for me. Virtually all of Villain’s range that I can beat should be hoping I check behind the turn, and indeed I often will. So for Villain to take the betting lead away to ensure that a bet goes in on this turn is not a good thing. When I’m an autopilot mode, it’s easy for me to decide to peel one and see what happens on the river, but that’s a 7BB mistake. Paying enough attention to act consistently on this somewhat small and subtle stuff can easily be the different between winning and losing, and it ought to be standard.
What if he’s just a donk who takes weird lines? 🙂
Lately I play exclusively Omaha Zoom version.
I am fish at $2 NL (6 max) ZOOM but I tried twice 6-hour session 6max NL.
I was unable to make profit from my “nuts”.
The net profit came from exploiting the general tendencies you describe above.
I donked or folded to donks 90% of time in similar situation.
It was only one questions which was bother me.
How long this general tendency will hold for NL ZOOM?
Or How fast the players or bots will adjust their game?
My first impression that 6-max NL holdem zoom seems very boring and extremely tide game-overall no action game.
It seems low variance,small pot,no tilt intensity game.
I fish did not have any delusions that I will make big $$$ in this game because of my imaginary skills or mental attributes.
I wouldn’t be folding this. He started the hand with less than 100bbs = he could be donking turn with all sorts.
If you should “consistently” fold here, as you suggest, does this not make it very easy for observant villains to exploit you a ton?
I am actually curious, how would you exploit this?
Is villain calling with JJ/AJ (2 streets) just to bluff an improbable queen???
I can’t see that being profitable in the long run.
I guess V could be turning KK into a bluff but you are happy all the other times he lets you see a flop.
What about KdQd or QdJd?
@Chris, not really. Are they going to get into this UTG v UTG+1 spot and wait for a Q on the turn then say “yes this is the spot I have been waiting for to exploit him!”
I agree with some other posters in that this should not be an auto-fold 100%. Possible hands that could play such a weird line are TJdd KQdd since the turn improves their draw immensely. ATs or AJ is also possible because your Ax hand would now chop if kicker smaller than Q, and he might be betting to see where he’s at. This is only 200NL, right?
You obviously put him on exactly AQ (and less likely but possibly stubborn QQ) as played to fold on turn. I cannot see how villian ever has AA A2 22 in this spot.
For those advocating a call, the problem is facing a river bet. We improve so infrequently – plus one of the 3 other kings completes the FD – that we are basically hoping villain gives up on the river if he’s behind. This is villain dependent, so having stats on the opponent would help – river aggression, aggression frequency, bet turn/bet river, etc. Readless, I think folding is a more thoughtful/sophisticated play, but not far in ev to calling.
We are not calling because we hope to improve.
We don’t have to be hoping that he doesn’t bet the river for us to be calling the turn. It’s true that we may need to make a further decision on the river.
So are we calling a large bet on any non-D river?
No not necessarily – we don’t need to call all river bets no matter what just because we called the turn. Note he has donked less than half pot on the turn.
Ridiculous fold versus an assumed whale sitting on a <100bb stack. Wow, wonder how you managed to post that one.
Been reading this blog for 3 years I think. Used to think this was the best & most strategy prevalent blog online. Lately the quality of your posts has decreased. This is a perfect example.
This is literally one of the worst folds I’ve ever seen. Him being UTG means very little given : Clear fish with <100bb stack. MR & defend small 3b OOP = still has a very wide range.
Folding because you think he has AA, AQ or QQ is atrocious.
If you're putting 2x in his range, also place ( in fact place these hands in his range anyway) 35s, 45s, KTss, KQss, KJss type hands which recreational players will do terrible things like c/c flop, 1/2pot donk T etc. Also they will donk other Ax hands & other pairs, for no real reason at all.
This fold is beyond terrible.
I sincerely hope this hand history was a mistake, although given your 6 figure losses on stars, I'm starting to realise more & more that you are not a winning cash game player.
This is coming from a ZOOM 100/200 reg, who has beaten the game for 6bb+/100 over 60k+ hands.
Can't see myself reading this blog for much longer.
wow… lots of strong reactions to his hand. obviously it’s not standard, but posting standard hands doesn’t help anyone break down the theory of poker. you can certainly justify calling here, and I’m sure the vast majority of people would, but I wouldn’t say folding is terrible- i still don’t understand a plan for the river. above, jonny has said we’re not looking to improve, we’re not hoping that he gives up, and we’re not calling a large bet on the river. this doesn’t add up.
brokos posts hands on this blog that are meant to generate conversation and thought. out of 1000’s of hands he is willing to post his most misplayed hands. i’m a successful player, but I know that if I posted my more difficult hands I would often be roundly criticized. you say that this used to be the best and most strategy prevalent poker blog – i still think this is the case, and couldn’t name another that is even close.
I agree that the hand is not standard and, and I don’t agree with those people claiming this its ridiculous to consider folding. I think when our opponent shows a sudden interest in putting money in the pot, when we have shown nothing but strength, we should always be open to the idea of folding.
I also think my comments which you refer to are perfectly consistent. I am assuming he donks the turn with enough stuff that we are beating, and that he will do one of a number of bad things on the river enough times, to make the river profitable. – e.g. he might keep donking weak with his AJ, or he might give up some of the time, etc. It is not true to suggest that we have to be thinking on the turn something like: ‘I can only call if he gives up on all rivers’, or ‘I can only call the turn if I never go on to fold the river’