One of my primary goals when coaching poker is to help my students think more creatively and situationally, to consider all of their options rather than just doing what they think is “standard”. They learn to find value in places they hadn’t thought to look for it by thinking through all aspects of a situation rather than focusing narrowly on their own holding. One common example of this is learning when and how to play unpaired hands for showdown value, usually but not always as bluff-catchers. Initially, many people are very uncomfortable calling with a hand like Ace-high. They might consider bluffing with it, but they usually have trouble recognizing opportunities to show it down as the best hand in all but the smallest pots.
I got an IM yesterday from a student who’s worked with me for a few months. He is originally from Paris, and though he now lives in Manhattan, he played this hand at a French casino while visiting his mother for the holidays. It couldn’t be a better example of what I’m trying to help my students achieve, and I am really proud both of this student and of the progress he has made:
[12/22/2011 8:38:16 PM] Student: dedicated a call to you tonight! 😉
[12/22/2011 8:38:44 PM] Foucault: i’m intrigued
[12/22/2011 8:39:02 PM] Student: haha, ok, 6max french tournament.
[12/22/2011 8:39:24 PM] Student: 400/800/75
[12/22/2011 8:39:29 PM] Student: i have 36k
[12/22/2011 8:39:40 PM] Student: huge stack to my right has around 70k
[12/22/2011 8:40:22 PM] Student: the previous hand was me and him BvB and I shoved on his cbet with an open ender. he folded very frustrated saying “next time you’re getting called.”
[12/22/2011 8:40:32 PM] Student: type of guy who if things don’t go his way, you’re a bad player.
[12/22/2011 8:40:49 PM] Student: so the following hand he opens to 2400 in the CO and I have A8ss in the btn.
[12/22/2011 8:41:08 PM] Student: pretty sure that a 3bet would get be very little respect and woudl lack fold euiqty, i decided to flat.
[12/22/2011 8:41:15 PM] Student: flop comes K5K
[12/22/2011 8:41:27 PM] Student: and he bets 1400 into 6000
[12/22/2011 8:42:14 PM] Student: his range in the co is too wide to put him on a K right away but I don’t think raising him here is going to achieve much.
[12/22/2011 8:42:30 PM] Student: and i’m getting obv getting a good price so I peel one.
[12/22/2011 8:42:39 PM] Student: turn a 7d
[12/22/2011 8:43:09 PM] Student: he now bets around 8500 into 9k.
[12/22/2011 8:43:44 PM] Student: i have 30k behind roughly and start to think about his line and how it doesn’t make sense for him to do this with a K.
[12/22/2011 8:44:23 PM] Student: the small bet on flop and huge bet on turn seems fishy so I decide to call assuming i’m good and ready to call or check back a lot of rivers.
[12/22/2011 8:44:52 PM] Student: river 10h and he shoves.
[12/22/2011 8:45:15 PM] Student: i tanked for about 5 mins. eventually deciding that he either had a full house/AK or air.
[12/22/2011 8:45:57 PM] Student: I think he checks all his PP, all his 10 (J10, Q10..etc…)
[12/22/2011 8:46:10 PM] Student: obviously values his K10 but i don’t think that big.
[12/22/2011 8:46:28 PM] Student: and certainly doesn’t value a pair of 7’s or 5’s. not good enough.
[12/22/2011 8:46:53 PM] Student: So I call and he inta mucks.
[12/22/2011 8:47:04 PM] Foucault: did you show?
[12/22/2011 8:47:11 PM] Student: i did
[12/22/2011 8:47:13 PM] Foucault: you have to
[12/22/2011 8:47:14 PM] Foucault: that is so badass
[12/22/2011 8:47:21 PM] Student: i thought he was gonna kill me.
He finished 15th in the tournament after shoving A7 into AQ, which I’m sure was disappointing for him. Still, calls like these are their own reward. You can tell just from this snippet of conversation how sophisticated his thought process was and how excited he was to make the right play when it required something as courageous as calling three barrels for his whole stack with no pair. Hands like these you remember for the rest of your career.
Tres bien!
I just see CO frustration and how his feeling could translate into aggression and heroic decision to call with Ace.
No problem with that.
I can not grasp bet sizing inconsistencies itemized by your disciple.
We have following line: 42BB, standard preflop bet, underbet on flop,turn -pot size bet and shove on river on consistent dry board on all streets.
” i have 30k behind roughly and start to think about his line and how it doesn’t make sense for him to do this with a K.
the small bet on flop and huge bet on turn seems fishy so I decide to call assuming i’m good and ready to call or check back a lot of rivers.”
Enlight me Coach! What creative bet sizing make sense for him with a K? Pot control with trips or “not fishy” deceptive line to double ?
I am just curious what river cards make BTN to fold? NONE?
If I may reply for Andrew, I think villain’s thought process on the flop is basically cbet small to get hero to fold as his air, and when hero calls, now he has to bet big to get him to fold some kind of showdown-able hand. Given that villain’s obvious frustration widens his bluffing range in this spot, and it’s a spot when generally both players are going to weak/polarized, the call makes sense.
The other thing is that villain is unlikely to bet so big when he wants a call for the same reason (hero is likely to be weak), so a 1/3 – 1/2 PSB is more likely to be for value from a villain who’s primarily playing his own hand, but may have some sense of hero’s range.
OK.Let’s define situation in wider context.
Hero calls are when one player calls with the bottom part of his range when his opponent is representing the top part of his range.
So we have BTN hero call and underlining story is:
CO “fishy” acton on flop, turn and river failed to communicate “top range” to the BTN.
Well said.
I doubt it would be correct to fold any river.
There’s a difference between saying that this would be a good way to play a K and saying that it’s how Villain actually would play it. I wouldn’t expect a random live player to near-pot the turn when he puts his opponent on a weak range.
Bien joué !!!
Congrats for teacher and student.
Very nice hand, I like the thought process but I really have to ask this.
Why is your student so sure that villain doesn’t have a better Ace. I mean there’s nothing in his stated thought process which even contemplates villain having Ace high. From a bad player, like villain seems to be its pretty likely that he has AJ/AQ quite often here and even if his Ace is worse, you still only chop the pot. I still like the call because villain is spazzing with gunk pretty often here, but I am curious to know whether this was actually just missing from your student’s thought process.
Besides the fact that better Ax hands make up a small part of villain’s range, we expect that he’ll bluffcatch with them most of the time because they do have showdown value.
Come on,be brave, lets spell out: Every river card is good card to call.There are no river cards which make BTN fold.
“i tanked for about 5 mins. eventually deciding that he either had a full house/AK or air.”
The CO elimination logic of T from CO range should be apply to the whole deck.
CO logic is based on very comfortable assumption.
The assumption is that frustrated CO with just 20K left is able to shove with extremly narrow range: air or AK,full house.
So thre is no river card BTN will fold. Sorry with exeption Ace or King?.LOL.
If you accept the BTN assumption you do not need to map BTN range.
Every river card is good card to call.
you do not need to map CO range
They do have showdown value, but not in the eyes of a tilted spazzy villain. If he has those hands he is certainly bluffing with them rather than meekly check/folding or check/calling. I VERY much doubt that he bluffs flop, bombs turn and then check/folds river- there’s a 0% chance of this kind of villain taking that line.
Also, Nimh, I appreciate the fact that they are a small part of his range. My question wasn’t “why did he call here”?, it was “why didn’t he consider the aces” and it was more out of curiosity than anything else.
We are not on the same page.I made couple typo. I meant BTN logic,BTN assumption and just CO range.
You VERY much missed my point.
My point was about implication for Hero call situation when two people run into the bottom of each other’s ranges on river.
Anyway.I promised no more comments.
I don’t think you can be sure. I do think there’s at least a chance that he wouldn’t feel obliged to bluff with Ace-high, and on top of that his range is probably wide enough to call down even if he does occasionally show a better Ace.