I’m trying to make as thorough of a list as I can of reasons for betting or raising, and I’d appreciate your help. Obviously this isn’t an exact science, but I’m very interested in your feedback regarding the following list:
1. Value– To get called or raised by worse hands.
2. Bluff– To fold out better hands.
3. Protection– To fold out worse hands that have some equity in the pot.
4. Information– To make decisions easier on future streets
5. Deception– To increase the profitability of future bets in similar situations
6. [Insert Catchy Name Here]– To set up a multi-barrel bluff
7. Isolation– To get the pot heads up with a particular player
8. Position– To drive out players who will have position on you later in the hand
9. Blocking– To prevent an opponent from putting you to a difficult decision
10. Image– To encourage opponents to misunderestimate your skill or playing style in later hands
I guess I should add too that what I’m really interested in are good reasons for betting. Like, “because the guy’s shirt was blue” is maybe a reason why some people bet, but I’m not interested in putting it on my list.
Make sense? Thanks in advance for any comments, questions, or suggestions you can offer.
11. Because you’re pot-committed, and betting gives you some fold vig. [This is a combination of 1, 2, and 3, depending on the situation, but it really is a separate concept.]
P.S. – thanks for keeping up your great blog!
Interesting. Do you think that the “Lesser of Two Evils” that I described in a previous comment would capture what you’re getting at here? Like, this bet won’t fold enough hands to be profitable in a vacuum, but since my other option is to check-call, then it’s better to shove?
PS- thanks for reading and commenting!
12. Balance. Because, while it might not be the best play in a vacuum, you wan´t to balance the times that you wan’t to bet in the same spot with different types of hands.
I think this is part of 5.
How about launching bet for number 6?
It’s got a certain ring to it…
13. Iniciative. Because you feel that you will be able to play the hand better if the betting impetus is on you.
BTW lol I wrote wan’t twice. English not my first language sorry 🙂
+1 for iniciative. And literacy.
Reason #11. Because you’re Andrew Brokos.
14. Induction. To induce your opponent to make a spewy call or raise that he wasn’t planing on making. (Like underbetting after he checks to you)
I wouldn’t say #6 is distinct from #2. And #9 is very general, it covers THETA’s #11 as well as some of #3 and #4.
There are a lot of slightly different situations which are a combination of the above, but I’m not sure how many of those you want.
#14. Why not – If you almost always cbet, then it’s often a case of “why shouldn’t I bet”.
Maybe that’s not distinct from #5 though.
#15. PotLimit – Bet now so that the pot is bigger on a later street.
Again, this could be considered a combination of some of yours.
The only other one I thought of was: #16. bet in position, so that you won’t be bet into on the next street. But that’s also covered by #9 (and might be classed as a combination of #1, #2, #3 and #4 :).
I distinguish between 6 and 2 because there are times when a single-barrel bluff will not be profitable, but the fact that this bet will help me to fire more profitable barrels later is enough to shift it into a profitable bet. Like, if I just said, “I’m betting to fold out better hands,” there wouldn’t be enough better hands folding. Setting up a play further down the road is a separate motivation, I think.
14- The bet itself would still be intended to accomplish something, though. I don’t think I’d bet just because I usually bet, if I didn’t think that bet would accomplish any of these other things.
15- I’ll have to think about this one. I think I’m almost always betting either for value or to set up a future bluff when I’m building the pot. But if I’m distinguishing 6 from 2, maybe this is a similar distinction for value betting.
16- I think this is part of 9. I’ve taken to describing this is a “turn blocking bet”.
I can think of situations (they come up all the time in the smaller games) where I would make a pot-building raise preflop in PLO and especially PLO8 with a likely break-even hand, or sometimes even with a bit of the worst of it, but I can’t think of any where I would make a pure pot-building bet on the flop. (Admittedly, this may reflect lack of imagination on my part, rather than sound poker practice). After the flop comes down, I think maybe you probably shoudn’t be building pots unless you figure to have the best hand or the best draw, in which case it’s really a value bet, so I would not put pot-building on a list of reasons to bet.
Obviously, however, betting does make the pot bigger, and fairly high on the list of reasons NOT to bet in PL is “to keep the pot as small as possible.”
Yeah, pot sweetening is interesting. I’m thinking of spots, usually pre-flop as you say, when you are raising something small vs. a few limpers with like 76s in a loose passive deep-stacked live game. You don’t have the best hand, but you are hoping they will call, and not just because you expect to have profitable post-flop bluffing opportunities. I’ll have to think about that one.
I’d say that Induction (what Nicolas said) is the clearest one that’s missing in the list.
Less clear: X where Semi-Bluff = Bluff + X
X can be “Potential Value” (maybe falls under Value) but also “Playability”, e.g. you have the nut draw with no other showdown equity, then your hand will be easy to play since you will have either the nuts or nothing. (Maybe that also falls under Value, if “worse hands” include “less playable hands”. But not under Information as long as Information means information about your opponent’s hand.)
Induction occurred to me, too, but I wasn’t sure if it warranted differentiation from #1. I guess it’s not impossible that I’d be trying to induce a raise from a better hand that will fold to a 3-bet or something, but then wouldn’t it just be 6, setting up a future bluff?
As for semi-bluffing, I think that would mostly be 2+3, possibly 6 as well. I don’t think the fact that you have equity when called changes the bet’s basic essence as a bluff.
Yes induction can fall under #1, I failed to notice that at all. But the value we’re after is not the size of our own bet, as in a “normal” value betting scenario, but the size of the induced bluff raise.
As for semi-bluff, I meant a particular example where we don’t mind a call that much because it inflates the pot and our opponent might be pot-committed whereas we aren’t (when we miss we can still fold). So it can’t be #3. But we don’t plan to continue bluffing, so it isn’t #6 either. It is an effect that (if it has practical relevance at all) is specific to No-Limit and couldn’t occur in Fixed-Limit. Basically we can win small pot (if opponent folds -> #2), lose medium pot (if opponent calls and we miss), or win big pot (if opponent calls and we hit -> #1?), and the increase in pot size is exponential.
Like setting up a freeroll? Intriguing. I do know the spots you’re talking about. I’ll have to think on this one as well. Thanks!
I guess this is either 1 or 2, but you may not know which it is at the time: because player X’s bet/raise is full of shit and/or makes no sense.
Yeah I think in that case my bet would still be intended to get him to fold a better hand or give me action with a worse one. In retrospect maybe I should have called this list “Things a Bet Can Accomplish” rather than “Reasons for Betting”.
#6 Hammer: He just kept pounding at me until I gave up. Or dropping the hammer as in petal to the floor.
Oooh, not without potential. Didn’t Harrington refer to something else as The Hammer in one of his tournament books, though?
Could be. I haven’t read any of his books. My poker is on hold for a while as my resources have been diverted to my new twins. 🙂
Nice, congratulations! Careful not to overplay your small pair 🙂
balancing your range against an opponent you expect to play a similar situation with in the future
I meant for #5- Deception to cover this, but Balance is probably the better name for it.
I think you’ve included Game Theory within the list in a few places, but Randomizing might be done with the second hand on your watch or the opponent’s blue shirt. 🙂
And I think this fits under deception, but i would note one may bet in a public forum (national televised poker) when you might play more passively otherwise. Similarly, what about taking advantage of a bubble in the money or the blinds are about to rise? I think your lists cover these, but there are definetely places to step up the aggression simply based on structure.
Thanks as always.
Thanks, pie. Abusing the bubble would definitely count as 2 and 3. The blinds about to rise thing is interesting though. Maybe that fits as Lesser of Two Evils? Like you make a bet to avoid having to make a worse bet on a future hand, as in shoving 85s UTG for 4.5BB’s or something.
Regarding the blind increases, your example is good. I specifically had in my head playing a hand from under the gun, knowing on the next hand you will be the BB, with a rise in the blinds going into effect. In my mind, that is an extra incentive for aggression in the current (UTG) hand, but i am an admitted novice at this game.
Thanks as always, Russ.
“Misunderestimate”…LOL! George W. Bush strikes again!
How about ‘Indecision’ – you are generally not quite sure where you are in the hand or where your opponent is. A check/fold check/call check/raise does’nt seem appealing so a raise for raisings sake might work.
For us amateurs the train of thought goes as follows
Sh*t dont know what to do
Whats he got?
Times running out
Christ, time really is running out
May as well have a stab at it
*puts out raise, closes eyes hopes for best, stops breathing momentarily etc*
;-D
🙂
guess that would fall under Information.
agree that inducing a bluff seemed to be missing from the initial list.
Another possibility is buying a free card, thought not talked about much in NL play, and might be covered by blocking.
Lastly, “information” does not only apply to future streets, but also the same street (i.e. when you raise with the intention of folding to a shove)
Good points. The free card is a good suggestion. It’s similar to a blocking bet, but perhaps not the same.
Betting to induce is probably the only one i’d consider adding.
Also, even though it’s encompassed in several of the others. Betting because its “good for our range” is one people don’t always think about/fully understand.
I think several of these already overlap.
-Information/Protection
-Blocking/information
The difference between Blocking and Information is that Blocking is generally to forestall or pre-empt an immediate action by your opponent. Information is to help you make better decisions later, which may or may not include influencing your opponent’s future actions.
I’m afraid I don’t see the overlap between Information/Protection at all. I agree that a bet could accomplish both, but I think they are distinct sources of value and neither encompasses the other.
Apologies if someone already suggested this and I missed it — To get a free card on the next street.
They did but it’s a good suggestion and bears repeating.
we need one of those ‘share on facebook’ buttons here kthxbai
Yeah, I suppose that would be a good idea. I’ll talk to the webmaster about that. Thanks!
17. Skill Advantage – to increase advantage your skill level provides over an inferior opponent you want to be consistently playing for bigger stakes.
I like it! I wonder if this is the same thing as the pot sweetening I was talking about earlier?
betting is more fun than folding…
Wow, such a nice long list! Also, how about “because no one else is.” These moments seem to occur early in tourneys more often, I guess (so maybe the long-run potential isn’t magnificent). But you know, it’s a 5-way pot and no one stabs at either the flop or turn so you may as well.
I feel like all of the value that comes from betting in that spot is encompassed by other things on the list. Presumably the fact that no one else is betting means they are likely to fold, if not now (#2 and #3) then later (numbers 6, 7, and 8).
Perhaps this is part of #9, but to establish/maintain control of the hand?
Also perhaps this falls under #9, but betting a certain amount so that your opponent won’t bet a larger amount? I’m thinking particularly on the river when heads up. Maybe “Pot Controlling bet”?
The latter is definitely a blocking bet. Maintaining control of the hand is an interesting concept. I think it’s some combination of a Blocking bet and a Free Card bet (still not sure if those are distinct things).